...and then he said (starting with an excerpted quote from my last post):
"'If we include supernatural explanations of natural
phenomena as science, we have left the realm of those explanations that
are “testable by others by additional experiments or observation”, and
reached a dead end.'
And again you show the bias that I argue
against. If we include the possibility of supernatural explanations of
phenomena as science we can still remain in the realm of explanations
that are testable by additional experiments or observations. Let me
give you a very elementary example. You leave the house and all the
ingredients for a cake are sitting on the kitchen counter. When you
return there is a cake on the counter. You may conclude that someone
made a cake from the ingredients. I conclude that someone took all the
ingredients and left a cake. How do we decide which is the correct
theory? We’ll if I happen to observe that the cake found was a
chocolate one, yet the ingredients on the counter did not include
chocolate then we will have to discard your theory!
Jumping to
the question under discussion, evolution, how does this apply? The
naturalist explanation for the varying forms of life present today is
that natural forces caused gradual progressive changes from the
simplest forms to the complex forms that exist today. And intelligent
design advocate would say the changes that occurred were to some degree
caused by other then a natural force. How do we resolve this choice?
Which one better describes what we can observe in the fossil record? It
is that simple and that effort fits within the definition of
science-testable by others by additional observations."
...and I replied:
Perhaps I do demonstrate a bias in my definition of
science, but it's a bias in favor of evidence, and in favor of being
able to say “I don’t know yet” without having my world collapse around
me. Perhaps a better way to put it is to say that science concerns
itself not with why, but with how. In the example you
gave, neither of us has any idea how a cake came to sit on the counter,
and in fact, I would be as happy (or unhappy) with either explanation,
since both involve an outside agent for which there is no evidence in
your description (other than the existence of a cake, which is
certainly provocative!).
Since it seems unlikely that we could regularly leave collections
of ingredients on the counter and come back to find baked goods, I
imagine our inquiry would involve trying to find and map new footprints
on the kitchen floor, and trying to figure out some way to determine if
the baker came in with cake or just a recipe and some chocolate (dirty
utensils in the sink, residual warmth in the oven, crumbs on the
driveway, a cakebox in the trash, and so on). If we could find no
supporting evidence for the existence of a baker, though, we would be
forced to consider the possibility that cakes can happen as a result of
processes other than being baked by external forces. That we simply
don’t yet understand the details of how they happen cannot stop us from
considering that possibility.
The existence of varied life forms is hardly so simple a matter, as
you know. We have no experience of cakes (or even cookies) baking
themselves that I’m aware of, but we do have experimental evidence of
processes in evolution that track that theory as a whole with
remarkable precision. In the interest of saving you from another “grand
tour”, I’ll spare you a recitation of the reams of evidence that
support the conclusion that living “cakes” can bake themselves, but it’s there, and it has been steadily added to over 150 years of careful research.
Proponents of intelligent design argue that the fossil record’s
gaps disprove the theory of evolution, or at least, require us to
consider as science explanations that fill in those gaps. This is
nothing more than the inability to accept the limits of what we have so
far seen in the fossil record, and presupposing with Paley the
existence of a “watchmaker” because we can see a “watch” and no other
watch-generating agency. This is reducing life to cake-baking again,
and it’s wildly simplistic.
The existence of a complete fossil record that showed every step
along each evolutionary path to the present, would, in my view, be
suspiciously tidy. I am therefore unconvinced by an argument that says
essentially that the lack of such a fossil record throws evolutionary
theory into significant scientific doubt. More importantly, though,
there is no portion of the “watchmaker” theory that can be replicated
in a lab, particularly since one of the primary characteristics of the
watchmaker in question is His notoriously fickle inclination to make an
appearance.
Science is the study of things that do reliably appear in the world, and that study has produced every one
of the technological advances on which we now rely for our daily
existence. To hobble further study by saying that we have to consider
“God did it” as valid scientific theory is to render scientific inquiry
unable to proceed past that point. If the proponents of intelligent
design want to be considered as scientists, they might consider
investigating how “God did it”, but as long as the answer to
that question remains “We can’t know that – He’s God”, then that
answer, while gratifying in that it provides an internally consistent
explanation for anything, is profoundly unscientific.
...to which he replied (again excerpting some quotes from my post):
"'we would be forced to consider the possibility
that cakes can happen as a result of processes other than being baked
by external forces.'
Big grin here … I was not intending for
the cake story to be an analogy for evolution but I can see how it
might appear so. What I was trying to show is that observation can be
used to figure out the baked here or not theory.
'Proponents
of intelligent design argue that the fossil record’s gaps disprove the
theory of evolution, or at least, require us to consider as science
explanations that fill in those gaps … The existence of a complete
fossil record that showed every step along each evolutionary path to
the present, would, in my view, be suspiciously tidy. I am therefore
unconvinced by an argument that says essentially that the lack of such
a fossil record throws evolutionary theory into significant scientific
doubt.'
The fossil record is a rather interesting topic as
it is the primary observation that the theory of evolution is trying to
explain but is also one of its major contravening observation. The gaps
in the fossil record do not disprove the theory of evolution, but the
theory of evolution's inability to explain them is a major problem with
that theory that should not be glossed over. Yes a complete fossil
record that showed every step along each evolutionary path is too much
to ask for, but the lack of even one case of macroevolution, a major
part of the theory of evolution, being present in the fossil record is
very damaging. A major test of any theory is that it can accurate
predict the results of tests. Evolution predicts that a fossil record
of the evolution of new species will be found. It has yet to happen and
the failure of this test for well over 100 years is no small issue.
Darwin himself pointed this problem out. And conversely the observation
of sudden appearances in the fossil records of numerous life forms that
have no conceivable ancestors in the fossil record is also disturbing.
A few would be no big deal, but hundreds is a problem. All of these
observations demand that explanations other then gradual progressive
changes should be considered."
...and I said:
Glad I got you to grin, as that was my intent. The comparison between cake-making and watchmaking was striking, though.
It's
been some time since I've been really conversant with the details of
the research I'm alluding to, and I don't claim to be a biologist, so
I'm probably not a very good guide, but we aren't short of them.
Richard Dawkins' answer to Paley, The Blind Watchmaker and Stephen Jay Gould's The Structure of Evolutionary Theory are both more eloquent and more erudite than I can be on the subject, and both are well worth the time (in Gould's case the considerable time) it takes to read them.
As
I understand it, it is somewhat misleading to describe macroevolution
separately as a central tenet of evolutionary biology. The changes that
define "speciation" (ability to interbreed) aren't those that would
appear in a fossil record, so there is unlikely to be an "Aha!" moment
in the search for macroevolutionary evidence. I suppose the development
of forensic DNA testing holds some small hope, but the Earth recycles
its living tissue very efficiently, and what we can see in the fossil
record is only a purely random snapshot of a tiny percentage of those
creatures who have lived, so it's by no means certain that we'll find
evidence in such DNA tests, nor is it my understanding that any
evolutionary biologist is currently willing to stake his reputation on
so improbable a proof. Where, other than in the writings of those who
want to oversimplify the theory of evolution in order to poke holes in
it, do you find the statement that "Evolution predicts that a fossil record of the evolution of new species will be found" as anything other than a possibility?
What
I know of the process by which species become different is limited, but
I understand it includes a tiny mutation that prevents interbreeding
followed by others which gradually differentiate the two new species
from one another. In that sense, speciation is an extension of the
variation within species that is well-established, and that has been
replayed in a number of labs.
We're still talking past one
another to some extent in this discussion, though, and the tests of the
theory of evolution are somewhat beside the point, since they are
internecine arguments among those who all accept the validity of
"naturalistic" explanations.
The real problem, as I see it (and
as I've perhaps been clumsy in trying to express) is that science is at
its core a reductive enterprise, and God is not reducible. Even
if the explanations provided in Genesis are literal truths, and man was
created at the end of six days of work by the Almighty, and all the
evidence for evolution that we have seen is simply a false trail (all
possibilities I admit I find incredibly remote at best, but possible),
intelligent design isn't science because at its core, it relies on an
unknown and unknowable agency for its explanations.
Science
has at its base the drive to construct "rules" or "theories" about the
physical world, and God doesn't have to obey any rules. His handiwork
may well be all around us, but it is impossible to explain it
scientifically, because science is the study of how things come to be the way they are, and there are no how
"rules" that apply to God. What we "know" is no less mysterious than
what we don't, and more importantly, neither one ever will be less
mysterious, because there is no way to investigate it.
It's
possible that God made the rules about how the world works, and that
the study of science is the study of those rules, but if the rules are
so incoherent as to require regular "tweaking" by the Almighty to
produce the world around us, then a) God's not a very good designer,
and b) science is meaningless. If intelligent design is science, then
the basic principle of science that there is a repeatable, mechanistic
explanation for the world we live in, is wrong. Scientific explanations
aren't just undiscovered yet, they're undiscoverable and therefore
essentially illusory. People respond to medical treatment because God
has decided they will, not because doctors know anything about how we
get sick and get better. Crops grow because God says so, not because we
know anything about farming. Bridges stand up because God in His
wisdom, likes bridges. Airplanes fly because God wants them to, and for no other reliable reason.
Whether
that attack on the usefulness of science is intentional or not, that's
a mighty big baby you're throwing out with that bathwater.
...and then he said:
" 'The comparison between cake-making and watch-making was striking, though.'
Absolutely,
and I can see how you made that connection. However it was not my
intent at the time I wrote it, I was just hungry! By the way, for
analogies I prefer Behe’s mouse trap.
'We're still talking
past one another to some extent in this discussion, though, and the
tests of the theory of evolution are somewhat beside the point, since
they are internecine arguments among those who all accept the validity
of "naturalistic" explanations.'
When I got to this part of
your post, I chunk out all my carefully crafted replies about the tests
of the theory of evolution as this is really the heart of our
discussion. I think you meant to say “those who only accept”. If I’m
wrong tell me.
'science is the study of how things come to be the way they are'
Yes,
I agree but what is so threatening about the answer to the how question
being God? That does not overturn anything that is already observed
about how the world works. You appear to be afraid that if God somehow
guided the development of the world that it would overturn all of
science. I don’t buy it. Take this statement as an example,
People respond to medical treatment because God has decided they will,
not because doctors know anything about how we get sick and get better.
If
you believe that God is active in the world then you might restate this
as follows. People respond to medical treatment because God has decided
they will respond to treatment and doctors understand how they will.
Why do the “laws” of science work the way they do? Fundamentally we
don’t know. We know how to describe how lots of things work but we do
not know why they work that way. Why is the gravitational constant the
value it is? We don’t know, nor do we need to know to send a man to the
moon. We just have to know what it is. Why is the value of the
cosmological constant what it is? Again we don’t know, but Einstein’s
equations don’t work without it!"
...and I replied in turn:
“…I prefer Behe’s mousetrap.”
The
problem with Behe’s mousetrap analogy is that it assumes that all the
parts of the mousetrap must have been developed at once as a mousetrap,
and that implies the design of a mousetrap. If you assume that the only
reason for the development and selection of an inherited trait is the
use to which it’s finally put, Behe’s mousetrap is a real puzzle, but
the problem is that there is no reason to make such an assumption. It’s
a classic piece of question-begging to do so and then to say that the
conclusion driven by that assumption must therefore be valid.
“…what is so threatening about the answer to the how question being God?”
I
don’t feel threatened by the proposition that God made the rules at
all, nor do I think many scientists are, as long as the rules remain. I
personally know a couple of “naturalist” scientists whose faith informs
their belief in something very much along those lines. I don’t happen
to believe that with them, but if the rules remain, one’s belief or
lack of it is irrelevant to the study of the rules themselves, and science is the study of those rules.
Intelligent
design implies something else altogether. It says that at some point,
God came along and fiddled those rules to produce a result unobtainable
by following them. Not just that He could fiddle the rules, but that He did,
at critical points. If that’s so, then the rules are meaningless. The
gravitational and cosmological constants are constant not because there
is some reason for them that we don’t know yet but might someday find
out, but because it’s God’s will that they be so.
If that’s
true, and if, as we are told, God’s ways are irreducibly mysterious,
then all of science is engaging in a pointless exercise, because it
attempts to learn something that is not just unknown, but unknowable.
That’s a dead end, and I don’t buy it. More to the point, it implies
that further study of the mechanics of how the world works (i.e.,
science) is a waste of time that could be better spent in prayer. That
may be a perfectly acceptable conclusion for some, but not one that I
want to see my child taught in science class. Such a science class is
not teaching science, but theology. I learned a great deal from
studying theology in school, and I think studying it is very
worthwhile, but nobody pretended it was science, and nobody should.
He replied that :
"You appear to argue that each of the parts of the mousetrap may have developed with some other function."
...and I replied to that (along with some other related back-and-forth):
They
may have, or, as others far more well versed in evolutionary theory
than I have repeatedly pointed out, some parts of them may have
developed as less sophisticated mousetraps. We don't know, but the
existence of a mousetrap doesn't require that it have been arrived at
all at once - it may have been arrived at in steps, and refined over
time. (This analogy is stretched as thin as it will go here,
particularly since mousetraps and other inanimate objects, like cakes, were designed. The same need not be so for living organisms - again I refer you to Richard Dawkins.)
I'm
not sure that I can think of another way to say what I've been saying,
and we may have to leave it here with an agreement to disagree. I'm not
saying that it's inconcievable that God's hand is at work in the
variety of species, the laws of physics, or anything else that science
studies. What I'm saying is that if that's so, it's a fact that is
outside the scope of the study of the rules that govern the physical
world, and therefore not science. It may be right, but it's not
science, and to include such a wild card in the deck of those rules is
to obviate what science studies. It may be there, but it's unstudiable by definition, and therefore not science by definition.
You
would like to change that definition. I think such a change is
dangerous and inconsistent - inconsistent for the reasons we have been
discussing, and dangerous because I don't want to see scientific
inquiry on trial in ecclesiastical courts, which are venues that have
already demonstrated their incompetence in such matters repeatedly over
the course of history.